Wednesday, October 12, 2005

American Libertarianism and the Co-operative Nature of Civilization

Here you are reading this blog.

This simple process is one that requires very fundamental agreement. Our symbols, letters, words, grammatical constructs, etc must agree in order for us to communicate.

We have many similar points of agreement: the money we use, the roads we drive on, as we conduct business or trade, how we are employed. Similarly we regulate our behavior so that we minimize the stress when engaging others.

This co-operation usually extends to our childcare, healthcare, welfare and other social mechanisms. We have law and policing to guide and regulate us. We also co-operate with the leadership we nominate or elect in our community.

All told, co-operation serves us very well. It has allowed us to transcend the harsh realities that nature would have us suffer. What we have had to relinquish with this co-operation is some of our personal freedom. This is the price we must all pay to enjoy the benefits of civilization.

Relinquishing some freedom can be viewed another way: we need to accept some amount of self-discipline to make our societies work.

Different societies demand different degrees of self-discipline. Japanese society demands personal discipine that the people of many other countries would find oppressive.

Conversely, a society that makes little demand of its people becomes ruled by tyrants and/or organized crime who victimize the majority as they employ their disciplined thugs.

Also, in any given society, there is a baseline for the personal effort required by the average person to maintain that society. When a person chooses not to do his/her part, or can't be bothered, they either end up in jail, banished, or living on the street.

Now we come to a crutial matter regarding civilization: how much personal effort do we wish to accept for the kind of society we would find desirable to live in?

This is a careful balance everyone of us must make. The first way in which we can choose is with our feet: if we don't like a particular community, we can move away. If even the nation is undesirable, we can emigrate.

We are allowed an opportunity to make small changes when we vote for our leaders. We can choose to be still more active by becoming part of the political process.

This range of involvement reflects the variety of jobs within a social infrastructure (organization).

None of this has come painlessly. Our histories are rife with smaller disciplined bands seeking to rule majorities, usually through vicious force. Wars fall within this.

The social infrastructures (assumptions) that we enjoy today were bourn at the cost of much suffering.

When a soldier's headstone reads 'Fought and died so others may live free', this freedom isn't the freedom that nature allows animals, this is the freedom from oppressive bands of thugs.

We have reached a level in the maturation of our societies where the majority of societies have outlawed undemocratic thug governments or organisations.

Generally speaking, we try to promote this kind of society.

Enter America.

America was born opposing thugs (the British Army). As such, the American leaders of the time, charged with the mission of defining this nation with its Constitution and other documents of incorporation, wanted to instill social mechanisms that minimized the chances that any oppressive regime could succeed in the future.

To that end, they wanted to empower the individual. They wanted to balance the powers of society with Constitutionally entrenched powers of the individual.

While this balance is certainly laudable, there was one small problem with what they were attempting: they were trying to balance social and individual priorities under warring circumstances.

Through necessity, this demands the individual be excessively empowered, at the expense of society, because the society will otherwise always win out.

Thls has had a profound affect on America. This gross imbalance favoring the individual has resulted in Americans largely dismissing the benevolent side of civilization so that anything of a social nature is viewed with suspicion.

This makes for a very schitzophrenic nation. On the one hand they are very proud of their national achievements, but in the next breath they will complain about their government saying how much they don't trust it, and typically denounce anything of a co-operative 'socialist' nature.

The Libertarian philosophy sums up this attitude against society: basically everyone should be free to do as they like, and no one should have to suffer any manner of imposition. Whatever co-operative arrangements that are desirable should take place as necessary.

So what's wrong with this? As noted earlier, our social infrastructures didn't just 'happen', there was a long painful process of social evolution whereby we earned the equitable societies we enjoy today.

Libertarianism, particularly as Americans wish to employ it, would maximize personal freedoms without recognizing the huge debt owed to the countless lives given to making our societies as fair as they are today.

When we can claim today that our best societies are basically democratic, that was no small feat. As anyone in any law-making capacity can attest, our laws are continually evolving and can never be neglected, let alone abandoned in favour of the ad hoc or laisser-faire approach of the Libertarian philosophy.

One group that can find Libertarianism particularly attractive is the Christian Fundamentalists of America. This can be true because their terms of reference, the Bible, is based on a level of social evolution two millenia primitive to our's.

Since Libertarianism largely dlsmisses social evolution, this fits beautifully with the Christian Fundamentalist's idiology: first, dismissing two millenia makes the world described by the Bible more contemporary, which it isn't, and second, the whole concept of evolution can also be dismissed.

Dismissing all manner of evolution is particularly attractive since the similar mechanism of natural evolution is particularly dlstasteful to Creationists, a majority among Christian Fundamentalists.

Is this 'Individual favouring' imbalance such a problem? What are the consequences? What symptoms should we be able to observe?

What would a society look like if there was an imbalance between social and individual priorities favouring the individual?

Since social priorities, like healthcare, education, etc weren't given the attention they deserve, they would be immature, if not altogether arrested in development.

The advantages of large scale financing for expensive benefits like healthcare wouldn't exist, and such concerns would languish.

This would be true except that America has many social mechanisms despite the Libertarian rhetoric. The military, education, medicine, and even welfare are financed through necessity. It would seem that for all the talk about maximizing freedom, it is too obvious that everyone's life is bettered through co-operation.

The most obvious symptom of the imbalance between individual and social priorities can be witnessed in the interpersonal exchanges among Americans. There's an assumed 'every man for himself' attitude that can be seen in many matters.

For example, this 'everyman for himself' attitude promotes the categorizing of people as winners and losers. The winners are rich and good-looking, the losers are poor dorks. Money is everything, the measure of success, and losing or second place is nothing. Bill Gates, Hugh Hefner, and Donald Trump are to be admired, emulated as heros, masters of success.

Yes, it's vain and childish, but it still serves as marching orders for the lumpenprole (typically conservatives), those who've never given their own existence a moment's thought, because if they did, the rapaciousness of it might horrify them.

Never would you hear from these people that they would wish their fellow man the best of luck in their struggles for a bit of success, because that might be wishing them more than they got themselves.

'Every man for themselves' has created tribalisms that could never exist in a socially cohesive society. These tribalisms have created gross imbalances in the American social fabric because 'everyman' is always stronger in some manner of co-operative association, even if it only includes family, or gang, or church.

Addendum 2pm, 10/14/05

The Democrats' uphill battle against the imbalance favouring the individual can be seen in this post.

In an effort to see some serious social improvement, Robert L. Borosage demonstrates how the lives of Americans can be improved. He shows many co-operative mechanisms that would do this however, there is a fundamental matter any Republican rebuttal will include: do we want a nanny state that infringes on personal freedom?

With this, one can witness the unending struggle the Democrats have. It would seem that as a survival mechanism, they have largely ignored this aspect of their Constitution, in much the same way as the Third Amendment is, and probably as they would like to ignore the Second Amendment. Unfortunately, the Republicans never allow them to succeed.

So what will have to happen? Perhaps these matters will need to be revisited, and re-evaluated in the light of modern perspectives. That however, will be a rare political platform.

16 comments:

Justin said...

OK, I see your point, but did you miss all of the times in my blog where I say I support people's rights to do what they want up to the point where they begin to hurt someone else? In a free society it is the role of government to protect the citizens from each other, not themselves. If a corporation is exploiting their workers or the environment in the name of excessive profits I have no objection to the government stepping in and putting a stop to it. What I do have an objection to is the government stepping in and attempting to control people's personal choices that affect no one but the individual making the choice. The flip side to this amount of personal freedom is accountability. For example: I smoke, no one forced me to start smoking and I wasn't a victim of unscrupulous advertising that targets children, if I was that is my own fault for being such a stupid child as to fall for such a scam. If I get lung cancer I should not expect the government to step in and pay my medical bills, nor should I expect to win a law suit against tobacco companies. It was my choice, and I should be held accountable. As a result of this type of thinking, you and I can both be allowed to make our own choices, and when we make bad ones we will have no one but ourselves to blame. Why make those who make good choices pay for the mistakes of those who make bad ones? That is where the cooperative nature of civilization comes in. I have the right to choose who I decide is indeed less fortunate than me and help them if I wish. This adds accountability to the system. Carbon copy government application forms and talking heads behind desks at welfare offices only allows those inscrupulous among us to more easily cheat the system. It takes a lot more guts to go to your community and say that you need help than it does to go to a government office and fill out the necessary forms to receive a handout.

Joe Visionary said...

Justin,

Thank you for your comment. Furthermore, I didn't intend on pointing you to this blog because you irresponsibly advocate freedom. I can certainly see that you don't: you believe that one must be accountable for the freedoms they enjoy.

I agree.

However, none of this makes allowance for the fact that we're born naked and ignorant.

What am I talking about? Consider: you state about your smoking that

I smoke, no one forced me to start smoking, and I wasn't a victim of unscrupulous advertising that targets children. If I was, that is my own fault for being such a stupid child as to fall for such a scam.

As the husband of an early childhood educator (ECE), as the Co-Chairman of an active Parent Council, and as the father of three kids I can tell you that a child is largely a blank slate that needs loving concern in their maturation.

Kids can be heartlessly manipulated as those who've been abused in the many ways possible. My wife was a sexually abused child who had predatory creeps teaching her that it's OK to be molested by in-laws.

The first clue she had that this may not be so was when she asked why her divorced father didn't molest her.

This is probably very similar to the many kids in warring countries where soldiers ('freedon fighters') give guns to kids.

My point: kids only know what we teach them until they've gotten old enough to know better.

So what should we do about this? The Libertarian stance would suggest that this is probably OK. But can you see how much damage we would have to undo if we allowed open season on kids?

In the past we assumed that a nurturing family environment would protect a child from this kind of abuse, and for the most part that is true.

But does that mean that it's tough luck for those kids who don't have a stable loving family?

In many ways that is exactly what happens, and so these neglected and/or abused kids eventually grow up, with little discipline or love for his/her neighbour. This in itself can cultivate sociopaths, but if you add to this by making them poor and unemployable, you can understand exactly who it is that sticks a gun in your face and asks you for your money. And consider yourself lucky if s/he doesn't pull the trigger anyway.

In any co-operative society (even back into prehistoric tribes) there has always been a mechanism to have orphaned kids looked after, some more successful than others. This is infinitely preferrable to letting them loose without guidance or discipline, because as I'd pointed out in my essay, they gravitate to either end up in jail, banished, or living on the street. None of this is desirable.

Moral of the story: you can't hold kids fully accountable when their conditioning may be a complete jumble of contradictory edicts handed to them by shameless opportunists. This is why there is 'Young Offender's' legislation - it allows for the sloppy maturation that is all too common.

If you don't like Young Offenders legal allowances because you figure kids are literally getting away with murder, then let me tell you, you DON'T want a Libertarian approach to the maturation of kids.

Justin said...

Ok Joe, once again, point taken. The one thing about libertarian thinking that you are forgetting to consider (don't feel bad, it seldom occurs to people on the left) is the self discipline instilled by spirituality. While I am no raging bible thumper, and I am definately not an advocate of government sponsored or god forbid, mandated religion, we who believe in a higher power do not need the government to teach us morality.

Take one short look at the people in power these days and ask yourself, "Would I want these people teaching my child morals?" I wouldn't. A belief in almost any religion on the planet, not just Christianity, will teach a person self discipline and compassion. Compassion that is given willingly will always be better than that which is mandated by the government.

I agree that most people are selfish, and would watch a starving child die and never bat an eye. I am not one of them. There are many people that are not a member of the every man for himself crowd that hold high the ideals of freedom. Give these people a chance to teach by example and there will be no need to force others to feel.

As far as your argument regarding unfortunate children all I can say is fiddlesticks. Sorry, not very articulate of me but it's all that comes to mind. Once again, the position I take allows people "personal" freedom, in other words the gov't doesn't step in until a person begins to hurt others. If someone is harming a child wouldn't that fall into the hurting others category?

As far as your wife is concerned, I am deeply sorry that she had to experience that horror, but never did I say that I believe in someone's right to molest children. I would favor the death penalty for child molesters.

I am not preaching an anarchy in other words, I am merely stating that a person should have the right to choose their own road, and right or wrong, reap what they sow, instead of sitting around expecting the gov't to save them when they screw up. Simply put, in a free society it is the job of gov't to protect the people from each other, not themselves. I am not opposed to a lot of the programs that you probably favor. I do not oppose the government stepping in when a bigshot is picking on the little guy, but I also do not favor the little guy milking the situation for all that it's worth either. I do not oppose gov't programs aimed at helping the unfortunate, as long as they are indeed unfortunate and willing to at least make an effort to help themselves.

As far as the blank slate argument goes, once again, fiddlesticks. Children are not blank slates and if yours are then I'm sorry that you were blessed with such boring children. (It's a joke, please don't take it personal, I'm sure you have wonderful children) If children are blank slates then tell me how two children, raised by the same parents, can turn out so different from each other as adults. My sisters and I agree on little yet we were raised in a two parent family with both of our natural parents. While I agree that environmental influences contribute greatly to how a person matures, a person is born an individual and different people handle situations differently. I have several friends that came from broken homes as children, some were abused, some weren't, some were neglected, some weren't, some grew up and went to prison, some grew up and went to work. There is really no pattern that I can discern so I am led to believe that these people simply took the upbringing that they were given and did different things with it. Some chose to learn from the mistakes of their parents, some chose to emulate them.

Once again this brings me back to accountability. If a person abuses a child, they should be held accountable. Nowhere in my libertarian ideals is there room for child abuse, and I have no idea where you get the idea that I would advocate a level of freedom where such things were allowed. That would not be libertarianism, that would be anarchy. Anarchy would be fine for my kids, anyone caught abusing them would be killed, but that does nothing to protect other kids, nor does it do anything to promote civilization. I would never favor a system allowing someone to step on others just because they could, as I've said before, I only advocate "personal" freedom, once a person does something that crosses the line into someone elses territory, that is where the gov't needs to step in and do it's job.

Here is an example: I believe that drugs should be legalized. I think that the "war on drugs" is pointless, expensive, and unwinable. In my point of view this is a problem that given the freedom to do so would alleviate itself. Those people responsible enough to do drugs socially and not in excess would go on doing so without persecution. Those that insist on abusing drugs in massive quantities, or using particularly dangerous drugs would soon overdose or starve to death and would therefore remove themselves, and their drug problem from society.

Harsh, you say, but the simple fact of the matter is this: I did not make these people choose to do drugs, they did so on their own and therefore have no one but themselves to blame, and it should not be my responsibility to rehabilitate them so that they can go out and do it again. As far as the poor unfortunate children of these junkies, they would be better off. How, you ask? With the money freed up from no longer fighting this pointless war on plants the gov't would have more than enough money to provide for foster care or adoption of these kids, it's what they usually end up doing for the children of druggies anyway, only now they wouldn't have to provide for their parents as well.

I'm sure that you and I will never see eye to eye, Joe, but I think that we see eye to eye on more than you think, we just have different ideas on how to accomplish the same end. I believe in compassion, and given freedom to make our own choices I believe that most people would choose more carefully than they currently do, considering the fact that there would be no gov't safety net to catch them. This would make a lot less compassion necessary, and that would be good for us all. As far as what was still necessary, good people holding bad people accountable for their evils will do far more to promote compassion, I believe, than a gov't mandate taking from those who made good choices and giving to those who made bad ones.

Joe Visionary said...

Hi Justin,

I realize this blog's getting long, and I've already started a new one, but I thought I should address some of the points you made here.

First, I think that the discipline demanded by many religions can reign in chaotic, destructive behaviour. For example, I've always admired the Muslim Ramadan as it demands a month of fasting from sunrise to sunset. Christianity similarly has the Ten Commandments, etc.

Yes, religion has had some moderating affect, though I say this knowing that many who have become disenfranchised from religion would argue that for what moderating affect religion may have had on individuals, it had NO such affect on the societies; Inquisitions, Crusades, Jihads and the like show none of the compassion and self-restraint that the individuals may have followed.

Regarding

Nowhere in my libertarian ideals is there room for child abuse, and I have no idea where you get the idea that I would advocate a level of freedom where such things were allowed.

I must confess, this was a really sloppy argument on my part, and I think I'll apologize for this crass suggestion. I may have blurted this out to goad a response, but frankly, it was completely unnecessary.

I'm in the process of trying to write my next blog on what I perceive is a blind spot in your arguments - perhaps not quite like this blind spot.

I must thank you again for your patience. These arguments are among the messiest and I will try to do my part to make my case(s) effectively.

Joe Visionary said...

...umm, I'm not quite ready for my next blog just yet. Instead I'd ask a question of you, Justin.

Would you hand a loaded handgun, with its safety off, to your 3 year old child?

Before you answer, can I ask that

1) if your immediate answer is yes, please talk to your wife, since she's at least 50% of the child-making process and in all fairness needs to be part of your answer, or

2) if your answer is no, that you be able to explain exactly why. This may take awhile and there is no hurry.

Thank you.

Justin said...

That's an easy question, Joe. While a 3 year old would be a little iffy, my kids have been shooting since they were 4 or 5 anyway. A handgun would be a little iffy as well, but it really doesn't make any difference what kind of gun it was.

My point is that I wouldn't turn a kid loose with a gun at any age until I was confident that they had the knowledge and control to handle it safely. When my kids were shooting at 4 or 5 I was right next to them and helping them hold the gun, at no point were they in total control of it. Even my 13 year old needs an occasional reminder to watch where his muzzle is pointing, so I am never far away when one of my children has a gun. Since a gun accident can happen in a split second my children are never allowed to carry a gun anywhere, at the range or while hunting, with a round in the chamber, I make them check, then I check myself to be sure.

As far as my wife is concerned, she has no problem with my kids learning to shoot, as a matter of fact she is and always has been totally in favor of it. My wife grew up in a home without guns and as a result didn't learn anything about them until she got together with me. Kids tend to experiment with things they don't understand so to us the logic is quite clear behind teaching them to respect guns at an early age. My children barely notice guns now, and when they are handed one they know how to immediately check and see if it's loaded and make it safe, instead of the dangerous fascination and lack of respect for them that so many kids learn from TV and movies. When they do have a gun in their hands they respect it as what it is, a tool that like many tools,when improperly used is capable of causing tremendous damage.

Now, Joe, I get the idea that you are not an idiot, visionary may be a little bit of a stretch, but no idiot. I'm certain that you anticipated a similar response, or maybe you were hoping that I would fall into a gun baited trap and go babbling on and on about the second ammendment like some right wing dipshit hillbilly so I'll be waiting for your response to this one.

No, I absolutely would not hand a loaded handgun with the safety off to a 3 year old, and my wife would definately have the good sense not to either, but I would help a 3 year old to control a loaded handgun and even allow him/her to shoot it, that wouldn't bother me one bit. I would allow a 3 year old to inspect a handgun and ask questions as long as it was unloaded, uncocked, and incapable of firing, I've done it many times.

Just for the record though, I prefer to start kids out on rifles. ;)

Joe Visionary said...

I wouldn't turn a kid loose with a gun at any age until I was confident that they had the knowledge and control to handle it safely.

Whoa.

While this comment is perfectly sensible, you are now faced with some glaring contradictions.

YOU OWN YOURSELF

First and foremost, libertarians believe in the principle of self-ownership. You own your own body and mind; no external power has the right to force you into the service of "society" or "mankind" or any other individual or group for any purpose, however noble.

THE RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE

Self-ownership implies the right to self-defense. Libertarians yield to no one in their support for our right as individuals to keep and bear arms.

Anyone who thinks that government -- any government -- has the right to disarm its citizens is NOT a libertarian!


How is it that you have excuded your kids from these same rights?

How can you disallow them to flail guns about as they wish, just because as a noble consciencious parent you feel justified?

And with that, what of their 'need' for self-defence? Have you disallowed that too?

Who are you to make these assessments? Yes, as a parent you need to do so, but that is not what you're preaching.

And what if they had managed to earn money to buy a handgun, presumably with your approval (why they should need that in a Libertarian household I have no idea), and popped it into their school knapsack? While theoretically un-Libertarian, let's assume that they have earned your trust in gun handling.

NO "CRIMINAL POSSESSION" LAWS

In fact, libertarians believe that individuals have the right to own and use anything- gold, guns, marijuana, sexually explicit material- so long as they do not harm others through force or the threat of force.


Do you really think that the whole school will simply accept that 'well, it's OK with dad...'?

Please feel free to explain this here or on your blog site.

Justin said...

Come on, Joe, be real. Can you not make a distintion between children and adults? Do you allow your children to do everything you do? Of course not, give me a break. I do allow my children to make their own choices, but not to a point of their own destruction or the destruction of others. Let me know when you come up with a legitimate question, and I'll attempt to answer it. Or if you like I could attack you in similar fashion. Crap like this doesn't stimulate intelligent debate, it's too ridiculous to be worth debating.

Justin said...

I just noticed something interresting, I hit every link on your page and if I'm not mistaken, not a single one, except of course for the forum that you inserted it in yourself, links back to you. Not only that but not one other person has jumped into this discussion we've had going for so long now. Maybe the only one that thinks you're a visionary is you Joe.

Joe Visionary said...

I just noticed something interesting. I hit every link on your page and if I'm not mistaken, not a single one, except of course for the forum that you inserted yourself, links back to you. Not only that but not one other person has jumped into this discussion we've had going for so long now. Maybe the only one that thinks you're a visionary is you Joe.

I tried the link thing and I'm not sure I understand. I suspect I may not be using some Blogger feature properly. As it is, when I want to insert a link, I actually type out all of the < a href... stuff. I may yet figure this out.

As for the Visionary stuff, I chose that name for a reason that you have yet to observe: no visionary considerations have surfaced yet. Besides, I wanted this name to be vaguely silly.

As for others jumping into the fray, I can't account for that. However, I'm betting there have been readers (the counter at the bottom has been creeping up), but they've chose to let us go on undisturbed in this exchange. Usually if you and I have enjoyed it, so too have they. Keep in mind that this hasn't been a soundbite exchange: you and I had to work at it...

... which brings me to your flaming blog.

While I'm betting that you knocked that off within 10 minutes of your having read my comment, you were satiated with your rant.

I will respond, but I can tell you it wont be a rant, and it will take a lot longer than 10 minutes to produce. I suspect it'll be the middle of next week before I get it right.

In any case, I will thank you as always, though I'm sorry you took such offence to my comment.

Justin said...

Yes, Joe, as a matter of fact I did type that up within 10 minutes of reading your "question." I don't know about you but I don't get paid to do this and I have a job and a life. If you have to spend several hours or days contemplating what you believe that's ok, I understand, liberalism is a very difficult position to defend, especially the socialist brand of liberalism that you buy into. I mean, considering that this form of government has already failed in countries all over the world I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to defend it but to each his own, right?

I think that if you would quit trying so hard to prove me wrong and just accept that neither of us are wrong, we just have different opinions on a subject that neither of us can really do anything about, that we would be able to have an intelligent discussion on the matter.

What exactly are you trying to prove anyway? The gun question was a blatant attempt to get me to lose my cool, and don't think that I didn't pick up on the reference to Ramadan, obviously Islam wasn't exactly what I was referring to but I'll bet you knew that and hoped I was a fire and brimstone spouting Christian and would take offense.

As far as your reference to religion having no positive influence on society let's just take a look at that shall we? How many inquisitions and gihads and crusades ect. can you think of that were instigated by individuals? None, that's how many, they were started by the religious leadership, leadership that had too much influence and too much power. That's what happens when the leadership of anything gets too much power, soon they're using their subjects as pawns for their own personal agendas.

If you don't believe me just take a look at history and tell me what happened every time that a government tried to have too much control over its people. Look around you, what happens any time that one person tries to have too much control over someone else be it a man over his wife, or parents over their children, a boss over his or her employees, the result is the same every time, the subject of the control gets used by the controller until one day, rebellion. To attempt to control someone or a group of people with their own best interests in mind is one thing, to simply control them to be controlling them is opression.

Anyway, Joe, I'll be waiting for your next response, I still don't understand why we can't just have a civilized discussion but I guess if you insist on treating this like a game of chess so be it. I guarantee you, however, we can continue to play this game until hell freezes over and no one will win, it's been tried before. Just do me one favor and try to just present your point of view without the underhanded attempts to piss me off, obviously you can piss me off if you try hard enough so I really don't see what you hope to accomplish by it, unless your entire motive is to prove that Libertarians are irrational. So far you've proven that one Libertarian has an irrational streak, you still got a lot more to go.

Justin said...

P.S. - What I meant by the comment about the links had nothing to do with anything that you're doing or not doing, it has more to do with what all of the people you link to aren't doing, as in they aren't linking back to you, I think I'm beginning to understand why.

Joe Visionary said...

as a matter of fact I did type that up within 10 minutes of reading your "question." I don't know about you but I don't get paid to do this and I have a job and a life. If you have to spend several hours or days contemplating what you believe that's ok,

My friend, I don't worry about sports scores, riding my machines, hangin' out with my buddies, etc. I struggle with the big questions, and on occasion I'll find big answers.

The beauty of my 'hobby' is that I don't need a thing to do it, only that which most people dread - a quiet moment to myself, be it sitting on the train to work, eating my lunch, or whatever.

I'm FAR too busy. You can get a mild sense of it from my previous blog, but this is my home life. I just came off an 8 week lock-out which adds a ton of stress to the life of my wife and on Wednesday I got a panic call from my basement tenant that a coupling tube under my second floor washroom sink burst.

At work I'm swamped. Bottom line: could you consider NOT being in such a hurry to judge? I've found that virtually all your comments and blogs do just that. Doesn't the Bible say something about the speck in your own eye?

P.S. - What I meant by the comment about the links had nothing to do with anything that you're doing or not doing, it has more to do with what all of the people you link to aren't doing, as in they aren't linking back to you, I think I'm beginning to understand why.

Here you go again. Exactly what do you understand? Few people seem to have the nerve to take on a serious blog, particularly when they need to reveal themselves in the process, and leave themselves open to criticism. Furthermore, I can't really be bothered with chit-chat blogging - I try to make SOME kind of contribution, so I can't see myself being a particularly popular blogger.

I think that if you would quit trying so hard to prove me wrong and just accept that neither of us are wrong, we just have different opinions on a subject that neither of us can really do anything about, that we would be able to have an intelligent discussion on the matter.

Prove you wrong? I don't think that's my mission: I have a conclusion that you're welcome to challenge. I AM working at that - you can say trying hard if you like. I'd suggest that my conclusion may be a worthwhile seed for discussion, but preferrably not to rile you into a froth or to have you make judgemental pronouncements. Otherwise I really do value your comments.

Finally, I'm going to ask that if you're sputtering with exasperation at something I've written, then yes, count to ten, take a deep breath, then carefully pick your way through your objections and write them down for me or whoever to deal with.

P.S. While as a Canadian I do have a lot in common with Liberal idiology, that isn't American Liberal idiology, though again there's similarities.

... but then I have similarities to some conservative, and even Libertarian idiologies...

Justin said...

Well, Joe, if you read my latest post you will see that I am sorry for flying off of the handle, it was wrong of me, and I apologize. Just for the record, I pay no attention whatsoever to sports scores, I have a dog that can chase a ball, I've never been impressed by people doing it. ;)

I as well place a high value on a quiet moment alone, it's just that perhaps we have a different view on what defines a quiet moment. Where exactly do you think I go on my "machines"? To places far quieter than your morning train ride I assure you.

All that aside, Joe, I would love to hear about some of your more Libertarian views, really. Perhaps if we could find some common ground to start from we could build from that maybe even wind up being "friends" some day. I put friends in quotes because the chances of us ever meeting face to face are slim, but always possible, you never know.

I am truly sorry for being such an asshole, it's just that at this particular moment you and your opinions just seem to embody all that I've seen as opression for a long time now, I just simply resent government intervention on matters that are of no one's concern but my own.

Anyway, Joe, if you will accept my apology, perhaps we can resume the discussion, just know this, I will never engage in this discussion with the objective of winning, there will never be a winner unless we can come out at the end being friends, whether we agree or not. That way, we both are winners.

Joe Visionary said...

You're a keeper, pal.

Joe Visionary said...

These discussions have moved to Justin's blog.